Some faster runners take offense at being called a jogger. But, like learning to walk, one must first crawl. And, learning to run, one must first jog. As odd as it seems, there is a person credited with inventing jogging - at least as we know jogging today. This inventor never was a professor in a university lab doing controlled experiments in ideal settings. Instead, he used his own body for real-life, trial-and-error running to develop one of the most duplicated distance training programs in the world. He was born in 1917. In his late 20s, in an era when that age was the twilight of an athlete's career, Arthur Lydiard, a rugby player in New Zealand, discovered that continuous running was the answer for an athlete who was slowing when compared to his more youthful competitors. Lydiard realized that long continuous running also lowered his personal records. So much so, that he won national titles in his mid-30s after having taken up competitive running just a few years earlier. He also discovered that "marathon training," with a proper mix of speed work and high mileage running - he experimented with as much as 250 miles per week - also lowered his PRs at all race distances. He gained world recognition when several of his club runners went on to set world records and win gold medals at the Olympics. In the early 1960s, Lydiard would talk and share his training methods with just about anybody in the world who would ask him. Though he is now 85 years old, it still took some chasing to catch up with the God of Jog.

Q: How many runners do you think you have coached or consulted in your career?
A: In New Zealand, I probably coached about 20 local lads. I never recruited anybody. They all came to me. Out of these 20, 12 represented New Zealand. When I went overseas, I started coaching coaches, not athletes.

Q: Bill Bowerman, Dr. Kenneth Cooper, Frank Shorter, and Steve Prefontaine are often names associated with starting the U.S. running boom. But actually, you are credited with "inventing jogging" as we know it today. How did that come about? (Did Bowerman visit you in New Zealand?)

A: Bowerman brought the world record-breaking 4 x 1mile relay team from University of Oregon (over here) in 1962. I started the first-ever organized jogging club in the world in 1961 and by then we had quite a number of people, young and old, jogging regularly for health. One morning I invited Bill for a five-mile jog with the local group, and one of the oldest of the group, Andy Stedman, who at the time was about 75, had to slow down for him. That shocked Bowerman. He stayed in New Zealand longer than planned and learned the concept of jogging from us and brought the idea back to Oregon. He was one of the best coaches the U.S. has ever seen and certainly one of the nicest gentlemen I've ever known.

Q: For an adult age-group runner planning to run The LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon this October, what would you have them doing now (March)?

A: My original training schedule requires seven months to complete. It starts with a three-month long aerobic build-up, followed by a month of hill resistance. Then you move on to a three-month long track training. So if you are a serious marathon runner and the race is in October, you should start your marathon conditioning build-up in March.

Q: There was some discussion at The LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon two years ago regarding when an elite 5,000-10,000 track competitor should run a marathon. Is there a best age when an elite distance runner should race at the marathon distance? Should they mix high-level track meetings with marathon racing? Many American distance runners focus just on the track, and then "move up" to the marathon and never or seldom ever race on the track again.

A: Your aerobic development is a gradual thing. It takes years and years of marathon-type training to develop your aerobic capacity to the fullest. That is why, when in 1984 Carlos Lopes was running a marathon for the Olympics, people said that he was too old. I said that it would be to his advantage because he had developed a fine aerobic base through years and years of training. Another good example is Lorraine Moller. In 1992, people thought she was too old. In fact, her shoe company dropped her contract, She won the bronze medal. Now, that does not mean you should wait till the very last moment to run a marathon. I found out years ago, and this is the fundamental concept of my training program, that when I started to train for the marathon, my track time got better. This is because of all the long running I started to do. Barry Magee was a bronze medalist in the Olympic marathon in 1960 and he ran a couple of seconds off the world record for the three-mile run in 1961. In fact, he became a better track runner after he started running marathons. You see the same thing with the English girl who set the world record for the marathon (Paula Radcliffe). She started running marathons last spring and she had the best track season of her life this past summer. It's just a matter of balancing your training.

Q: One elite marathoner said to me that he thinks there might only be about five good marathons in the body. Is there a limit an elite athlete should race at the marathon distance?

A: That's a lot of rubbish. You can run more than that. That's the question of recovery. With so much money involved in marathon running today, some elite runners have run a marathon, picked up a check and moved on to the next marathon to get paid again without adequate recovery. That shortened their career. But if you're careful about recovery, you can keep on running marathons and keep improving.

Q: It is interesting to see the number of parents who have their young child in highly structured dance, swimming, gymnastics, hockey, basketball, football, or baseball programs and think this is what has to be done to learn and be successful. But, these same parents will be reluctant to have their child do distance running because the parents think the child might burn out. What are your thoughts?

A: No one will burn out doing aerobic running. It is too much anaerobic running, which the American scholastic athletic system tends to put young athletes through, that burns them out.

Q: If someone has been running 5,000- and 10,000-meter races on the roads and decides he/she wants to move up and run a good first marathon, how much preparation time and training would you advise they get? At what point will they be ready to run that first marathon?

A: The most important thing in running a marathon is muscular endurance. Sometimes you can get away with running relatively low mileage and run a good 5,000 meters, but if you want to run a good marathon, you've got to do long runs. It helps to go as far as 30 miles in preparation for the marathon if you're a serious runner.

Q: There are a lot of Marathon 101-type programs for the novice runner. What are the key points the instructors of these classes should emphasize?

A: The thing is, have they produced good results. Quite often, I see people who are more of a salesman than a coach. They sugar talk things and attract people, but the actual fact is that they don't know an elbow from a backside! Also it is absolutely vital that they be able to tell you "whys" of training. If you ask them why you're doing certain training and they can't answer your question, or their answer doesn't make sense, you should look for someone else to coach you.

Q: A lot of joggers or first-time marathoners don't do their long runs until several weeks before the big race. What would be your advice to them about the amount of miles they should run and when?

A: I noticed some programs call for the longest run of the program only a week before the actual marathon. For most beginners, that's too much. For well-conditioned competitors, it is possible to run a marathon and come back in a week and run another one quite successfully; but for beginners, you should have at least two weeks, preferably three weeks from the last long run or the longest run to the actual marathon. This is called tapering. Also some people are so hooked with the longest run being, say, 20 miles or 22 miles. Well, for some people that could mean a five-hour run! That's way too much for the final long run before the race. It's much better to go by time spent running than miles. I feel a three-hour run being a good final long run three weeks before the actual marathon.

Q: Is there a secret formula for successful distance running? You seem to think it is building a base with real long runs for capillary development.

A: If you want to be a successful runner, you have to consider everything. It's no good just thinking about endurance and not to develop fine speed. Likewise, it's no good training for speed, or anaerobic capacity with lots of interval type of training when you haven't developed your aerobic capacity to maximum. You have to take a long view and train on all aspects of development through a systematic program. It's a lot of hard work for five, six or seven years. There's no secret formula. There's no shortcut to the top.

Q: In the U.S., LSD - long slow distance - has been the staple for base training, but you advocate much more long steady state (70 to 100 percent of aerobic max) running. Could you explain the pros and cons of this?

A: LSD has its place. Long slow distance of three, four or five hours certainly will enhance your capillary development well because you are engaging the exercise for a very, very long period of time. But the point is it takes longer to obtain the same result as if you were to do your aerobic training at higher aerobic speed. If you are a professional runner and all you have to do is to train all day long, you can afford to run five hours, but we couldn't afford to do that in our days. We had to obtain the best possible result in the limited time that we had and the best way to develop aerobic capacity was to train at higher aerobic speed. My runners did a very hilly 22-mile course, with one hill of three miles, somewhere around 2:10 and 2:15. We used to do our Monday 10-mile run in about 55 minutes. They were all aerobic running, but we weren't mucking around at all.

Q: Some people think that two 30-minute runs will give them the same benefit as one 60-minute run. Isn't there much more capillary development in the one long run than a person would get from doing two shorter runs?

A: Yes. As long as development of aerobic base is concerned, one hour run gives better results than two 30-minute runs. A single two-hour run gives you much better results than two one-hour runs. If you want to chase speed, you can make it like long interval runs of two x 30-minute runs. But you're pursuing a very specific development and you've got to understand what you're trying to achieve. And if development of aerobic base is the purpose of your training, then you need a continuous run.

Q: You mention in your book that if the workout calls for a continuous run, that a stop should never be for more than 12 seconds. Why?

A: Capillarization occurs by the pressure the heart pushes through the muscular walls in the working muscles and that pressure has to be continuous. If you stop for 12 or 15 seconds, then the pressure by the heart lessens. It's not like you would completely ruin your training effect if you stopped more than 12 seconds, but it is best to keep applying the pressure.

Q: What do you think of weight lifting for distance runners? Is hill running better resistance training than weights?

A: When I was a national coach in Denmark, there was a place that was absolutely dead flat. There were no stadium or steps to run, either. In the situation like that, weight training is fine. In fact, I have included photos of weight training in one of my books. The problem with weight training is that if you're not careful, you can easily get muscle imbalance and that could lead you to injuries. On the other hand, by doing hills, you can use your own body weight as resistance and you can strengthen necessary muscles for running in a balanced way in the actual form of running. The thing is; you should apply resistance to activate your white muscle fibers at some point, be it hill training or weight training. It is best to have professional opinion when using weight training so you don't get muscle imbalance.

Q: Many American runners will do repeat 200s and 400s and call it a speed workout. How does this fit in with the Lydiard way?

A: Repetitions or interval training can improve your speed to a certain degree simply because of anaerobic development and improved mechanics. This gives the false idea that you are actually improving speed. The actual fact is; repetitions or intervals are used for anaerobic development. You are creating huge oxygen debt to develop a buffer against this type of fatigue. Problem is that when you do that, you invariably tighten up. You can not develop fine speed when you tighten up. The best way to develop speed is to use some of the American sprint drills. (In other words) you should be fresh and relaxed when developing speed, not fatigued from oxygen debt. But bear in mind, there's a time for repetitions to develop anaerobic development and there's a time for sprint drills to develop fine speed. You have to organize all types of training, including repetitions and sprint drills, at the right time so you can peak on the day. That is the Lydiard Way of training.

Q: When and how much stretching should a distance runner do?

A: You should do some, particularly when you do faster training. I'm not against stretching. But the problem is; when people start to stretch 40 minutes before the run, run for a half an hour, come back and do some more stretching, then you're defeating the purpose. Running should be the core of your training. Some people say they don't have time to do 100 miles a week of running and spend a couple of hours every day stretching. I'd say do your 100 miles a week of training; then if you still have more time and energy, do your stretching. Besides, if you do lots of hill running or cross-country running, your muscles will be stretched.

Q: Before a race, you advocate a short warm-up and just moderate stretching. Could you explain?

A: It depends on what race you're running. If you're running middle-distance track races, you should spend adequate time to warm up. But if you're running a marathon, you're not going to sprint out fast at the start and you need to conserve energy, so light jogging should suffice. You should use the first couple of miles in the marathon as a warm-up. The purpose of warm-up is to get your body ready for vigorous exercise. Some people warm up and then sit around and do nothing before the start. That defeats the purpose. You should keep your body warmed up.

Q: What limits are there for children when it comes to how much distance running they can do? Number of Ks/miles?

A: I've seen many young children running great mileage without much distress. Their oxygen uptake in comparison to their body weight is even greater than that of adults. So as long as they run aerobically, there shouldn't be any problem for young children to run long distances, providing they wear correct footwear and so on. Where the problem occurs is when parents start to push them to run faster. They have highly sensitive nervous system and they can't handle too much anaerobic running because it pulls their blood pH level too low and that affects their nervous system. Encourage kids to enjoy running and play in athletics. Don't force them to run too much competition.

Q: How important is cross-country racing? After college, that seems to be a sport that isn't taken very seriously by many Americans.

A: Cross-country has always been a vital part of my training program. You can develop fine muscular endurance and suppleness in your stride by running cross-country. It also develops good running form and strengthens your muscles. When you engage yourself in road races, most of the time it is flat and fast because of good traction and it really puts lots of pressure by the heart. In other words, you are pushing yourself in a very anaerobic situation. On the other hand, in cross country - and this I mean try cross-country races in Europe, not a flat golf course with firm footing in America, which is nothing more than a glorified road race. The pressure is put on your muscles because of hills and uneven and slippery footing, your overall general conditioning can be developed without taxing your body too much anaerobically. So cross-country racing is one of the best forms for general conditioning.

Q: How do you address peaking for two seasons in one year in the U.S. - cross-country in the fall and track in the late spring or early summer?

A: Two seasons is not a problem. You can do your conditioning in the summer in June, July and August before your cross-country season; then in the winter in January, February and March before the spring track season. Of course, if you add indoor track season to this, it can become a bit tricky. But still you can use cross-country races as a general conditioning; or put a bit less emphasis on indoor track or something like that. In fact, as long as you develop a good solid aerobic base during the summer break, and train through sensibly during the cross-country and indoor season, you should be able to peak three times. My runners used to run cross-country season in New Zealand, then train for the track season, which is in winter in the Southern Hemisphere. Then after the New Zealand track season, they condition themselves back and head out for the European track season and handled themselves quite well.

Q: Should cross-country racing be more of an emphasis for 800-1,500 guys?

A: Runners for all distances can benefit from training for cross-country races.

Q: In the hill phase of training, is four times up the hill (every 15 minutes for one hour) a continuous run? What kind of sprinting is done at the top or when back at the bottom before the next climb? And, can you give examples of what kind of running is done on the non-hill days (besides the long Sunday run)?

A: It was a continuous eight-mile run along with about two miles each of warm-up and cool-down. It was a 2-mile circuit and we did it four times. We spring up 800m hill, jog 800m on the top, stride down fast 800m, and did some windsprints at the bottom of the hill. We used a stretch of 800m for windsprints and did various distances; sometimes four times 100m, sometimes one 400m, or a couple of 200s, something like that. It is important to do these windsprints every 15 minutes if the circuit is shorter, instead of every time you come down the bottom of the hill because that could be too much. We used to do hill circuit every day besides on Sunday when we did 22 miles. Later, I found out that hill training every other day can achieve just as good of results. Then we did some leg-speed training on the alternate days. We would warm up adequately and do 100 to 150m quitefast, concentrating to move your legs as fast as possible to overcome viscosity of your leg muscles. We would do this 10 to 12 times with plenty of rest in between, say, ta hree-minute jog.

Q: In the anaerobic phase, at what pace is this running done, or how do you determine how fast these should be? Why no racing during these weeks?

A: When developing anaerobic capacity, it is important to do a volume of anaerobic running so you lower your blood pH level throughout your body, not just in the working muscles. So if you do, say, 200s; you shouldn't do them too fast, or you'll accumulate too much lactic acid and you'd have to stop before you achieve this level. Otherwise, you'll bring the pH level down in your legs but not in your overall body. You should keep doing anaerobic running for 30 or 45 minutes; that would be about 5000m of total fast runs. So if you do 800s, do them six times. If you're doing 1km, five times. You should do them at the speed that you can maintain throughout the workout. Your first rep should be almost as fast as the last one. If the last one is much slower, then you know you did the first ones too fast. Sometimes, you did the last one and you can still do more. Go ahead and do more. You need to do them till you "hit the wall." Now during this anaerobic development phase, you are very, very tired with speed. You can still run some races but you'll have to be careful otherwise you'll make yourself too tired; and that could be fatal. You can use races as a form of anaerobic training. But you'll have to understand that you can NOT expect good results because you're too tired. You can't train hard and race well at the same time.

Q: What influence did you have on the Kenyans?

A: I was invited to speak in Kenya in the spring of 1992 by the request of Kenyan Amateur Athletic Association. I have not "influenced" the training of Kenyan runners apart from the fact they do what I preach anyway. They run to and from school in their early ages to develop tremendous aerobic base without even knowing it. They don't go to the local track with a stopwatch in hand, tearing around the track like lots of American kids would. By the time those Kenyan runners come to Americaor Europe, they have developed their aerobic base so they can engage themselves with hard anaerobic training or races.

Q: Is there something the Kenyans and Ethiopians are doing that can't be duplicated by American distance runners?

A: Not really. In fact, there are a lot of things we can learn from what they are doing. As I said earlier, they develop huge aerobic base by doing lots of easy runs without pushing themselves when they are at a young age. They also run natural terrain in most cases barefoot to develop natural movement of their feet, which is vital for speed development. Finally, they eat wholesome food, not processed with lots of preservatives. It may be difficult in America where most athletic shoes are rigid and bulky and most foods are processed, but you can still obtain these things. It's just a matter of understanding what's necessary and discipline yourself to do it.

Mike Prizy, a certified track and field geek, can be reached at mikeprizy@comcast.net . Thank you to Nobby Hashizume of Five Circles, whose mission is to promote health and fitness through running, for assistance with this interview.